Hybrids Confirmed

[Deadman]

Most of the hybrid benefit is attained in local stop and go driving, because the electric motor can get the vehicle up to speed while the ICE engine stays off or near idle to maintain coasting speeds, and can be powered down when decelerating. On the highway where you're traveling at higher, steady speeds, the electric motor won't provide much of a benefit. There's no regen and the battery is too small to provide motive energy. The other advantage of the PowerBoost is acting as a generator for camping, house backup, etc.

As battery prices decrease and energy density improves, Ford will be able to add a PHEV option, where local driving and part of distance driving can be done on pure electric. The question is what premium Ford will need to charge to recoup on the additional parts. All new tech starts out as expensive. With the increased focus on electrification, I think decreases in battery prices will accelerate due to increased scale and improved technology.

The battery prices will fall until we saturate the market with EV's, then China will stick it to us and triple the price of Lithium and all the BS needed to make these batteries.

 

[JasonH]

The battery prices will fall until we saturate the market with EV's, then China will stick it to us and triple the price of Lithium and all the BS needed to make these batteries.

That why the EV tax credit requires that critical battery materials are sourced from the U.S. or U.S. allies with a trade agreement. Lithium is not that uncommon, but some as with most materials it's easier to obtain from some source than others. China just got a head start on procuring and processing the materials, but China sources the raw materials from outside the country.

With heavy tariffs, tax credits, and increasing domestic production, there's no reason why the U.S. can't compete with China on raw materials. We actually have substantial domestic sources, such as the Salton Sea in Imperial County and the Carolina Tin-Spodumene Belt. In addition, alternative chemistries that use less Lithium, like sodium, are ramping up production. In the future we'll see more sodium batteries for stationary storage, which frees lithium for mobile applications. In addition, some manufacturers are experimenting with mixed chemistry batteries.

Battery prices are falling because of increased economies of scale and incentives to produce more process inputs domestically or from reliable partners. China is growing to grow old before its grows rich. Big Brother Pooh played himself.

 

[apex96]

My neighbor traded his 2022 F150 with 3.5 Ecoboost in for a 2023 Hybrid Ecoboost (powerboost). He just ordered a brand new 2024 F150 with standard Ecoboost because he said he absolutely would never recoup his initial investment on the added cost of the Powerboost. He said is got 1 MPG better in the summer, and a couple MPG WORSE in the summer, so there was absolutely no fuel savings for him. He said when it gets to like 20 mph it kicks the electric over to gas, so you can't ever really use the electric part much. He drives all highway miles in Northern, WI, so in this condition its absolutely not worth it. Plus WI has an additional license fee to pay annually for the Hybrid, so that's also lost. he said it had more power on demand if you hammered it, but he wasn't impressed enough to pay for that again.
His 2024 still hasn't arrived yet....

Not sure how you neighbor was driving his Powerboost but to say that it was worse than the non-hybrid version is incorrect. I daily drive a SSV F150 Powerboost for work. It sees lots of stationary work with engine on plus thousands of miles per month on the road. These Powerboosts can take some hard work and provide excellent fuel economy. On average this thing will produce 21-22 mpg mixed use every 7,500 miles (between oil changes). Highway mountain driving it gets 23-24 mpg, flat terrain highway it gets 24-28mpg. Highway towing averages 12-15 mpg. Highway speeds average 65-80 mpg. Urban driving nets 25-30 mpg in stop and go. This was all in normal mode and tow mode. I’m sure I could get better mpg in eco mode, if I used it.

Of note the hybrid works at speeds up to 65 mph, I can even get it to activate on long recents at 70+ mph by just lightly tapping the brakes to activate it.

The mild hybrid setup in the F150 is great and would be a welcome addition to the expedition.

My guess is your neighbor just didn’t feel comfortable with the hybrid and wanted an excuse so he felt better getting rid of it.

 

[Polo08816]

Not sure how you neighbor was driving his Powerboost but to say that it was worse than the non-hybrid version is incorrect. I daily drive a SSV F150 Powerboost for work. It sees lots of stationary work with engine on plus thousands of miles per month on the road. These Powerboosts can take some hard work and provide excellent fuel economy. On average this thing will produce 21-22 mpg mixed use every 7,500 miles (between oil changes). Highway mountain driving it gets 23-24 mpg, flat terrain highway it gets 24-28mpg. Highway towing averages 12-15 mpg. Highway speeds average 65-80 mpg. Urban driving nets 25-30 mpg in stop and go. This was all in normal mode and tow mode. I’m sure I could get better mpg in eco mode, if I used it.

Of note the hybrid works at speeds up to 65 mph, I can even get it to activate on long recents at 70+ mph by just lightly tapping the brakes to activate it.

The mild hybrid setup in the F150 is great and would be a welcome addition to the expedition.

My guess is your neighbor just didn’t feel comfortable with the hybrid and wanted an excuse so he felt better getting rid of it.

For flat highway driving (to include towing) at constant speeds, the non Hybrid should perform as good if not slightly (maybe not even measurably) better than the hybrid.

Also, where would they put the hybrid battery for the Expedition? Toyota really bungled this up on the Sequoia.

 

[dlcorbett]

For flat highway driving (to include towing) at constant speeds, the non Hybrid should perform as good if not slightly (maybe not even measurably) better than the hybrid.

Also, where would they put the hybrid battery for the Expedition? Toyota really bungled this up on the Sequoia.

For my understanding, ford bolted the battery to the transmission, but it ate into the fuel tank space. It shouldn't do that for the expedition since the tanks are about the same capacity.

 

[apex96]

For flat highway driving (to include towing) at constant speeds, the non Hybrid should perform as good if not slightly (maybe not even measurably) better than the hybrid.

Also, where would they put the hybrid battery for the Expedition? Toyota really bungled this up on the The hybrid will provide some assistance even at highway speeds. It’s minimal but it does help with keeping boost down when passing or going up minor inclines. The engine will charge the battery while you’re driving so it constantly can provide assistance.

For flat highway driving (to include towing) at constant speeds, the non Hybrid should perform as good if not slightly (maybe not even measurably) better than the hybrid.

Also, where would they put the hybrid battery for the Expedition? Toyota really bungled this up on the Sequoia.

The hybrid will provide some assistance even at highway speeds. It’s minimal but it does help with keeping boost down when passing or going up minor inclines. The engine will charge the battery while you’re driving so it constantly can provide assistance. The fuel tank is smaller at only 26 gallons as the battery takes away some space on the F150. Even with less fuel the range is 600-700 miles typically, depending on how it’s being utilized.

 

[Polo08816]

The hybrid will provide some assistance even at highway speeds. It’s minimal but it does help with keeping boost down when passing or going up minor inclines. The engine will charge the battery while you’re driving so it constantly can provide assistance. The fuel tank is smaller at only 26 gallons as the battery takes away some space on the F150. Even with less fuel the range is 600-700 miles typically, depending on how it’s being utilized.

I think there’s real value to this but it depends on a breakthrough in battery energy density. If you had an electric motor that can supply a constant 100-200hp for a 20-30 minutes, you’d be able to climb almost any mountain pass in North America. By the same token, if the electric traction motor is capable of significant regenerative braking for 20-30 minutes, you could do without an exhaust brake from a turbodiesel.

Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re quite there yet with our hybrid powertrains. Maybe in 1-2 generations / 10+ years we’ll figure it out.

 

[Brut4ce]

The hybrid will provide some assistance even at highway speeds. It’s minimal but it does help with keeping boost down when passing or going up minor inclines. The engine will charge the battery while you’re driving so it constantly can provide assistance. The fuel tank is smaller at only 26 gallons as the battery takes away some space on the F150. Even with less fuel the range is 600-700 miles typically, depending on how it’s being utilized.

The power boost F150 only has one tank size, it’s 30.6 gal

 

[apex96]

The power boost F150 only has one tank size, it’s 30.6 gal

Yep you’re right. My mistake. Usually end up filling it with 26 gallons once it gets to under a 1/4 tank. I think only once have I pumped ~29 gal into it and completely forgot it could take that much.